What's your insulin to carb ratio?

i didn't count carbs for the first 13 almost 14years of being a diabetic..counting carbs wasn't even thought of when i was diagnosed, and i'm sure it's the same for happyvegan and ddrummin.

i was on a fixed rate for each meal and snack, which only changed due to needing a correction cuz i was high or low.

i HATE counting carbs..and honestly..i rarely actually do what is considered a "correct count"..i don't look at the labels if there are none, and I don't measure any of the food i eat. I usually just look at my plate and go "ehhh..i donno..i'll take 6units for this i guess". no counting involved.

for SOME people fixed doses work, for SOME people carb counting works. for me..fixed doses and carb counting pretty much come in equal. it has barely made a noticeable change in my A1Cs or day to day levels.

 

excuse me if this offends you..but get off your high horse.

this reminds me of the whole pump vs needle thing that some diabetics go off about. what works for you, might not work for someone else.

1. Reading comprehension must not be one of your strong points.

2. "So how did you come to the conclusion that you would have taken 2 bolus units?  Seriously answer that question for me. YOU COUNTED CARBS!!!!!!!!!"

I stated that after a b/s of 70 I then start taking insulin based oonly on b/s readings. That insulin scale has been chosen by my doctor and I. It has nothing to do with what I eat.  The insulin is increased by a half unit for every 30mg my sugar is over 70. It is called a sliding scale.

3."Both of you have admitted to counting carbs."

I never admitted to counting carbs, because I don't.

4. "I really don't know why either of you insist staying in some ivory tower claiming that you don't count carbs when you do."

It sounds like you are the one in an Ivory tower, since you can't comprehend T1 management done any way but the one you know. I said in my very first post on this subject that the way I control my sugars isn't right for everyone, but is right for me.

5. "You're making it really hard for other, new and not so well informed, type 1 diabetics by saying you don't count carbs when in fact, you do."

Once again, I stated that my form of management isn't for everyone. It seems to me that you are in shock by the fact that not every T1 counts carbs.
There are other options people should know about, especially those who do not eat the food that most people do.

6. "I can only imagine a new or young diabetic eating some chips, an apple, pizza, whatever, CARBS and their mom saying "Well, how much insulin do you think you should take?"  "Whatever I feel like mom!  I don't have to count carbs.  Happy Vegan and DDrumminMan don't." Do you see what I mean?"

No, I don't see what you mean. I clearly stated I eat a certain way and this is what works best for me.
I did not promote this to anyone, but rather tried to inform you that there are other options.

7."It's OK to say it.  No one will think any less of you."

No. It is not okay to say, because that would be a lie. I have no reason to lie.
I don't care what your opinion of me is, this is what works for me.

8.  "You base the amount of bolus insulin you take on your CARB INTAKE and where your blood sugar is at that point. There is no denying that.  In fact you've already admitted to it. Both of you count carbs!"

Once again no I don't.

Furthermore, repeating your false accusations and typing them in ALL CAPS will not make your argument any stronger.  You're screaming in an echo chamber.

End of discussion.

Ummmm, does this whole argument stem from the difference between "counting carbs" and "estimating carb intake to manage BS"?  Isn't this sort of a semantic argument?

When I calculate a dose for my son, I literally have a calculator out, caluclating the dose based on his current BS and what he says he's going to be eating at that meal, and his carb/insulin ratio for that meal.  What I hear the "un-counters" saying is that they approach BS management from the perspective of a fairly fixed cab intake, and corrections based on their current BS level and any over-plan consumption.

Sounds to me like both approaches work, based on your current management plan.  What's the issue?

Mo

 

Wow Mo, you really keep reading my mind today!

mo-

 i'm not really understanding the issue either. actually, i'm totally clueless haha :)

Mine is 1:23 carbs

Monique H, the issue is that either way you slice it, it's carb counting.  The way people go about may be different or unconventional but in the end . . . it's carb counting.

So to say your not carb counting is detrimental to Type 1 Diabetics in gaining an understanding in the world.

If I'm at a party and I want to eat a piece of cake, I'm gonna eat it.  Why? Because I carb count, test my blood sugar and exercise.  I hate hearing "Well, my friend is diabetic and they don't carb count and they say they can't eat cake." or "I know a type 1 diabetic and they say you just shouldn't be eating that." Ugggh! It makes me cringe.  

Maintaining your blood sugar with insulin requires carb counting and helps us explain to people why, yes, I can eat ice cream thank you very much.  This is why . . . and I explain carb counting to them.

Plus, it encourages young and new uninformed diabetics not to carb count if people are out there saying they maintain great control but don't carb count. 

See my new post in trying to establish some facts so we all don't have to encounter unnecessary bias when we are out in the world having our cake and eating it too.

Okay, let me back up a step or two.  When our son was diagnosed he was put on an R/N program with a corresponding meal plan that reflected the peaks and valleys of the R/N insulin, and we were given a "correction" for those time when his BS was not where it needed to be.  Technically, I suppose, we were "counting carbs", because he was limited to X carbs for breakfast, X carbs for snack, X carbs for lunch, X carbs for snack, x carbs for dinner, and x carbs for snack.  If we didn't stick to the plan, or if he had a higher level of activity or stress that day, his BS showed accordingly, and we had to adjust.  Under this program, he COULDN'T eat cake at a party, because it it would blow his BS out of the water.  It was more of a "catching up, responding, and feeling out" sort of program, but still based on the basic premise that "x carbs require x insulin to process" sort of formula.  The problem for us was trying to force him to consume (or limiting consumptions of) carbs to accommodate prescribed insulin injections.  For a kid, that's really tough.  For disciplined adults, it may be more do-able.  And, I imagine that after years of living with T1, determining appropriate bolus or injections would become second nature, less a matter of "counting" as of "knowing".

Now our son is on a very flexible program, but that program comes at the cost of tighter calculations and more injections.  We calculate every carb, because that's the program he's on right now, and it's working for him.  But, our son has a friend his own age, seeing the same ped endo, on the same basic program, and his BS is not nearly as tight as our son's is, and they've been working on this a lot longer than we have.  Further, this child's father is a "brittle" T1 diabetic, and has suffered every complication there is, despite heroic efforts to "count carbs" and control his BS.

T1 management, I am learning, is a highly individualized thing.  What works for one person does not necessarily work for another.  So, to say that one approach is the "right" approach is inaccurate, and, I feel, counter productive.  There is no way I am going to tell my friend with a T1 son that they are not counting carbs correctly because her son's BS is not tightly controlled.  There are a dozen other factors at work, most of which we don't understand.

Bottom line, for me, is "if it's working for you, do it".  Call it whatever you want to, but don't assume the same approach works equally for everyone.

Mo

 

[quote user="Batts"]

i didn't count carbs for the first 13 almost 14years of being a diabetic..counting carbs wasn't even thought of when i was diagnosed, and i'm sure it's the same for happyvegan and ddrummin.

i was on a fixed rate for each meal and snack, which only changed due to needing a correction cuz i was high or low.

i HATE counting carbs..and honestly..i rarely actually do what is considered a "correct count"..i don't look at the labels if there are none, and I don't measure any of the food i eat. I usually just look at my plate and go "ehhh..i donno..i'll take 6units for this i guess". no counting involved.

for SOME people fixed doses work, for SOME people carb counting works. for me..fixed doses and carb counting pretty much come in equal. it has barely made a noticeable change in my A1Cs or day to day levels.

 

excuse me if this offends you..but get off your high horse.

this reminds me of the whole pump vs needle thing that some diabetics go off about. what works for you, might not work for someone else.

[/quote]

Same here.  When I was first diagnosed it was meal plans, exchanges, how many starches could I have, etc.  Man that was fun.  It wasn't until about four years ago that I was formally introduced to carb counting.  I like it better than the meal plan fiasco but I don't always follow it.  I do the ballpark figures, especially when eating out.  I figure there are probably about double the amount of carbs than what I would eat at home and inject according to that.  It is a round about way of doing it and I am agreeing to a certain extent that it is technically carb counting but it is more guessing than anything.  If I don't read a label, I'm not formally counting anything.  It works and it doesn't.

WHY ARE WE ALL SO ANGRY!!!??!

lol

Clearly Vegan is on a sliding scale which I don't understand the reason for doing that if you have a pump...

Batts is ready to throw it down with anyone who says a pump is better than shots

DD who is your idol in the drummer world? Bonzo? or Purdie? (definitely the greatest two in my mind)

Jack you kinda look like you should be driving around in your gameshow in NYC giving money to unsuspecting people who get into your cab haha

hows that for diffusing the situation? :P

[quote user="Greg Borkman"]

WHY ARE WE ALL SO ANGRY!!!??!

lol

Clearly Vegan is on a sliding scale which I don't understand the reason for doing that if you have a pump...

Batts is ready to throw it down with anyone who says a pump is better than shots

DD who is your idol in the drummer world? Bonzo? or Purdie? (definitely the greatest two in my mind)

Jack you kinda look like you should be driving around in your gameshow in NYC giving money to unsuspecting people who get into your cab haha

hows that for diffusing the situation? :P

[/quote]

hahaha yeah i am ready. who wants to go? huh? huh? punks!

=P

[quote user="Greg Borkman"]

WHY ARE WE ALL SO ANGRY!!!??!

lol

Clearly Vegan is on a sliding scale which I don't understand the reason for doing that if you have a pump...

Batts is ready to throw it down with anyone who says a pump is better than shots

DD who is your idol in the drummer world? Bonzo? or Purdie? (definitely the greatest two in my mind)

Jack you kinda look like you should be driving around in your gameshow in NYC giving money to unsuspecting people who get into your cab haha

hows that for diffusing the situation? :P

[/quote]

I suppose it makes me angry because it reminds me of when I used to drive a cab in NYC (before I had the game show idea) and people would short me when tipping.  Is it really that difficult to determine what 15% is?  No, it's not.  It's simple math. Same with carb counting/carb tracking/carb guessing or whatever you want to call it.  In the case of tipping it's not a life or death situation with T1 it is. And counting carbs is simply not an option.

Technically we all are doing it by either:

A) Looking at food labels and/or our plates, taking into consideration if you're sick or have exercised and saying: "I think that's about 5 units worth of carbs I'm going to eat." This is the simplest and easiest form of carb counting that probably 75-90% of T1's do these days.  

B) You and your doctor formulate a menu and he tells you how may units of insulin to take with a meal.  In this method your doctor is carb counting for you and you only carb count if you eat more or less carbs.  I think this is the sliding scale method which was popular 10-15 years ago.

C) You test your blood sugar religiously and take insulin according to your blood sugar level.  In this method you are letting your meter carb count for you. Thereby, you are carb counting with your meter. What this method is called I have no idea but it seems crazy given that the rate at which food digest and your insulin starts acting you'd be playing catch up all of the time.

 

If there is another method, let me know.  In any case, every method described above is technically carb counting since carbs are the only thing that raise your blood sugar (Yes, i know protein can but only if you don't eat carbs. Again forcing you to carb count)

So given that those are the only 3 methods I have ever heard explained to me, the statement that carb counting is not an option for T1 diabetics is indisputable.

So when T1 diabetics say carb counting is an option on this forum or anywhere, it's wrong and discourages people with T1 to do what they have to do to maintain their health and well being. All T1's need to face this truth so that they can move on and lead normal productive lives.

[quote user="plaidjack"]

So when T1 diabetics say carb counting is an option on this forum or anywhere, it's wrong and discourages people with T1 to do what they have to do to maintain their health and well being. All T1's need to face this truth so that they can move on and lead normal productive lives.

[/quote]

i'm sorry..but where's your proof that it discourages other T1's from taking care of themselves? have you gone around asking every diabetic on all the forums out there? a bit of a bold statement without any actual proof.

what you should've said is:

In my opinion when T1 diabetics say carb counting is an option on this forum or anywhere, I think it discourages people with T1 to do what they have to do to maintain their health and well being. In my opinion I think it is wrong.

 

I dont consider what I do carb counting, and the people you are fighting with don't either. why don't you just drop it already? you've become obessed with being right..to the point where in MY opinion, you seem like the kind of person who is obessed with always being right and can't handle to be anything but.

[quote user="Greg Borkman"]

WHY ARE WE ALL SO ANGRY!!!??!

lol

Clearly Vegan is on a sliding scale which I don't understand the reason for doing that if you have a pump...

Batts is ready to throw it down with anyone who says a pump is better than shots

DD who is your idol in the drummer world? Bonzo? or Purdie? (definitely the greatest two in my mind)

Jack you kinda look like you should be driving around in your gameshow in NYC giving money to unsuspecting people who get into your cab haha

hows that for diffusing the situation? :P

[/quote]

Actually my idol in the drumming world is Billy Cobham (definitely the greatest in my mind).  If you're not familiar with his work, get familiar with it! Here's a nice example: [View:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgSluYtBCEE]  He also wrote this tune along with many other great tunes. My brother and I saw him with this band in 2004.  Great stuff.

The 2 you mention are excellent choices though.  If someone put a gun to my head and said "Bonzo? or Purdie?" though I'd probably say "Bonzo". 

As far as Batts goes, from what I've been reading it appears she's soon to cross over to the dark side of pumping ...

 

[quote user="DDrumminMan"]

As far as Batts goes, from what I've been reading it appears she's soon to cross over to the dark side of pumping ...

[/quote]

yeah im gonna give the pump a shot but ONLY if i can get the Animas Ping. If my insurance denies me the ping, I won't try the pump.

and if i don't get better results with the pump, then I'm going back to MDI. no point in having something attached to me 24/7 and costs more than MDI does..if it doesn't help any!!

i still think MDI is better than the pump though =P nothing will change that, even if I end up staying with the pump I'm still always gonna love my MDI years.

Batts as a fellow pro shot/anti pump person it pains me to do this but I will explain first by definition and second by analogy why it's discouraging.

1. Discouraging - To try to prevent by expressing disapproval or raising objections.

This is exactly what Happy Vegan, DDrumman and yourself have done by saying carb counting is optional when it is not.  So that is not my opinion, it's a fact by definition. 

2. When people go around stating that they don't carb count and are perfectly fine it discourages other people to try.  It's like watching Kobe Bryant or LeBron James take 3 steps when driving the lane and effectively traveling (which is against the rules of basketball).  Do they get away with it, yes.  Does that mean everyone should start traveling while playing basketball, no.  But it's very discouraging to watch and have to explain to kids or people learning the game that well, they can get away with it but you can't.  They're not telling them not to but their actions are discouraging

 

I will not drop this until all T1 diabetics stop saying they don't carb count because it's a LIE.  They only diabetics who don't carb count are the ones who are completely unaware of the practice by which all T1 diabetics calculate their insulin intake and are doing something wrong like basing their insulin intake on calories or food weight. And that is very dangerous and detrimental to their well being.  I'm sticking to this not to be right.  I'm sticking to this because I care about other diabetics and their health. The information needs to be given to them and anyone trying to stop or discourage that information in my opinion should be ashamed. 

My question for you Batts is could you honestly stand in front of a room of people who have just been diagnosed with T1 diabetes and explain to them how you calculate your insulin intake without mentioning carbs?  If so, I'd really like to hear you do it or give me an example of what you'd say. Seriously, that is my point.  Better yet, I'd like to hear you explain to them why they have to take insulin at all! Try to do it with out mentioning carb counting in some fashion. 

I'm waiting because all of my statement are based on facts.  Factually explain to me how you are not carb counting or stop saying it.

In hind site, I'm really sorry I'm even getting upset about this because people like you will continue to say your not carb counting, when in fact you are, just to be stubborn.  All I can hope is that if you ever encounter a newly diagnosed T1 diabetic you don't discourage them from doing what you do, carb count.

i am FULLY aware of what discouraging means. and I don't think any of us are. They've all stated that it works for them, but it's not for everyone.

thats not discouraging other people from trying. that's just stating what WORKS FOR THEM.

and yea i'm stubborn, but at least I don't always have to be right. I just think you're being a moron and obessive over something as stupid as this and I'll like to see you admit to agree to disagree :)

1 unit per 15 carbs. all day everyday.

I've been on vacation, so I haven't been able to reply to this yet. But, can we all agree to stop arguing about this? We just won't all agree, ok?? Y'all are stressing me out!

I love carb counting, but this discussion is discuraging me from wanting to mention it ever again! lol.

[quote user="Sarah"]

I've been on vacation, so I haven't been able to reply to this yet. But, can we all agree to stop arguing about this? We just won't all agree, ok?? Y'all are stressing me out!

I love carb counting, but this discussion is discuraging me from wanting to mention it ever again! lol.

[/quote]

 

no don't say that :P plaidjack will be convinced we're discouraging you from carb counting completely hahaha